Showing posts with label Chicken Tractor. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Chicken Tractor. Show all posts

Saturday, April 6, 2019

April 1 - 6, 2019

We just love these two pigs!
This week was Washington's Spring Break. So my week at work was pretty slow and kinda tiring in a way. I would much rather be at home doing my farm stuff than sitting at work trying to get to the end of the day. Here are some of the happenings from the last week.

The Freedom Rangers:

The Freedom Rangers have been doing quite well out in the Chicken Tractor and have had a few opportunities to forage in their fenced area - which is new this year. Last Sunday - after we returned from church I relocated the two chicks that were injured to the outside area. They spent a full week apart from the others, but blended right in pretty quickly. So that's a happy thing.

Today was their first move while in the tractor and we are heading out toward the field now. This spot will be so much better for them - they started their first week on the spot where the ducks were before we moved them out near the pigs. So there was a lot of straw and nearly bare lawn ready for them to poop it up.

As of today we are at nine weeks to go. The time will go by quickly and before we know it we'll be off to pick up the poultry kit at the Conservation District in Battle Ground and getting ready to set up the processing area. We will move part of the processing into the garage - the evisceration area. I doubt that it will keep the Yellow Jackets away more, but I think it will be a cleaner area overall. I have a couple of people who have already said that they will help and I might have one more person. I really want to make sure that we get this done efficiently and more hands will help in that area. We'll see. In the end we need to be flexible and just go with the flow.

The PIGS:

Well, we had hoped that Fiona would be bred again, but she had a heat cycle toward the end of March. We don't know if Rex was able to get the deed done, so we are watching to see if she has another cycle this month. However just earlier this afternoon I was observing the pigs and Fiona has a look about her than might suggest that she is pregnant. Her teats are starting to look elongated and her belly is starting to sag.

Now, I don't know if pigs are like humans in that their bodies go into pregnancy mode after a few weeks in anticipation of starting to carry a baby or piglets in this case. So, as we are unsure of her status we'll just have to wait and see if she goes into heat again this month. Hope, Hope...

The Shelter:

We have a plan to revamp the old parking structure into a pig/storage shelter. With all of the other projects that has been put on hold. So Fiona could wait on being pregnant again so that there will be time to get a more appropriate area ready for her and Rex.


Here is the structure in all of it's dilapidated glory - this was in February. At some point we'll be able to circle back around to this project and get it going again. Like how I said "we'll?" hahahahaha. I'm only qualified to pass tools or hold the ladder or whatever. My hope is to turn the left part of the structure into a swine condo along with a farrowing room for Fiona. We have no idea what the room was used for, but it is perfect for our princess pig to give birth in. I also have a vision to incorporate a couple of stalls to try to keep the adults separated from the littles. They would also have easy access to pasture behind the shed to get out and graze a bit. There are a couple of other things that are happening that actually is more important and this project will be on hold for the rest of the month - most likely. That and it is April and the rains have started up this past week. Welcome Spring...Indeed.

The Garden:

Last weekend I thought I would broadfork the big garden. After a couple of passes I was over it and decided that the rototiller would be best. The garden is very compacted right now for some reason and it was difficult getting the broadfork to go very deep at all. Tom was planning to rototill anyway so he started with the garden and I dragged the silage tarp out and it is now covering the garden until it's time to plant.

In going through and ditching some of my old seeds I found an old package of peas that are the bush variety. They were from 2017 and unopened. I decided to see if they would germinate and now that it is nearly two  weeks later and still nothing. Okay, I'll have to figure something else out and plant the seeds that I saved from last years pea crop. They are one of the first seeds that I decided to save so I'm excited. In fact I'll plant the bean seeds that I saved from last year's beans as well. Both seeds came from Seed Savers Exchange.

Tomorrow I will be working on starting seeds again. The flower seeds that I sowed several weeks ago are doing alright so that's a good thing. There is one tray in which nothing germinated - which in itself is a frustrating thing. I think the soil that I chose wasn't a good choice as some of the seeds were from last year and should still have been viable. Other things did okay, but not great. So, I think I will be coming up with a new plan and see how it goes. There are a two or three other veggies that I want to grow, but I need to get the seeds first. I will probably spend some time in the hoop house tomorrow afternoon and maybe start a few extra tomato seeds and get some lettuce seeds sowed somewhere else in the hoop house bed. Maybe April will be a better month.

I always look forward to the days that I can spend time at home working on projects. One day this will be my everyday thing. One day.

Farm Life is My Favorite Life!

Friday, March 22, 2019

Graduation Day #1

The meaties will be moving out of the Brooder and into the Stress Free Chicken Tractor hopefully right before April arrives.

They currently live within a box that is approximately  2' or 3' x 4'. With each passing day they are steadily filling in the space - with growing chickie bodies and poo. We have removed the heating plate and one of the lamps. As their feathers start coming in they need the heat lamp less and less. Last night I took one last look at them and they were all bunched at the opposite end of the brooder away from the lamp. While I would like to take the lamp down, I think I'll let it stay in the event that we have some cooler nights ahead of us still.

Before we can move the meaties out, we have to come up with a new house for the Magpie Squad. They are currently in the Chicken Tractor and have become quite accustomed to the spacious accommodations. They'll have to adjust naturally and they will get a new not as large home, but one that is custom made by Tom!

The beginnings of the new duck condo
Hopefully more work can be done on the duck house and we can get it in place sooner than later. I'm pretty sure that they will protest a bit, but they adapt fairly quickly. They may even like the smaller house rather than the tractor:

The Stress Free Chicken Tractor being put in service
The dimensions of the duck condo is one pallet wide by 2 pallets long...that's all I know. Much smaller than what the duckies are used to.

The twenty-five meaties will have lots of room to experience fresh grass and with the fence - they will even have the opportunity to explore outside of the tractor.

Premier 1 Supplies has a newer poultry netting that is specifically designed for chicks. I first saw this on the Justin Rhodes channel - he and Premier have a pretty good relationship and he is the reason we use Premier for all of our portable fencing needs. This is the video that he published when he put the fence out for the first time:




The first thing Tom commented on is how tall the fence is. I think the regular fence is the same, but maybe those fence are 42" either way this one seems taller.


Tom went to run an errand so I decided to work on getting the fence set up. It was easy, just like the regular fence, but the prongs would get caught up in the small mesh portion of the fence. 


The meaties will get a preview of outdoor life hopefully this weekend. It would be nice to clean out the brooder and freshen it up for their last week or so in the garage. It's hard to say how they will react once they are on grass. However, I'm sure that they will be curious about the grass and maybe even start looking for things to eat in the grass. The trick will be gathering them back up to get them back into the box.

This fence will change the way our chicks grow up - maybe they will be even MORE meaty than last year's bunch. Last year I really enjoyed hanging out with the meaties and taking photos daily and some video here and there. This year will be no different.

Soon enough they will be out of this:

They have space now, but soon they will be totally on top of each other
Last year the meaties had a small courtyard
In eleven weeks we'll be graduating the new batch of Freedom Rangers to the freezer. Until then we'll enjoy watching them grow each and every day while moving them around the field every couple of days to new grass.

Farm Life is the Best Life - with new(ish) chicks.

Monday, July 23, 2018

Graduated

Even though the Freedom Rangers are not yet three weeks old, we moved them out of the brooder box that they have been housed in since we brought them home on the 5th.


Having them in the Brooder hasn't been bad, but they are eating machines and they are really good at converting food into poo...and quick! This brooder is fine for 6-10 chicks or ducks, but 25 meat chicken babies...NOPE.

It was so bad that the garage stunk really bad too! 

I didn't like the idea of them living in their own waste - which is hard to keep up with btw - so it was time to get them out. Up until Saturday they were extremely active - sparring with one another jumping on the waterer and just being crazy. I keep thinking that maybe we could make a brooder area out of the small room at the end of the parking shed. We'll see, it's just an idea right now. There are too many other things to tackle and the box is fine.

Anyway, in order to make the chicken tractor available the ducks needed to be moved first. The easy part was just letting the Magpie girls out of their enclosure and letting them do what they do. Which really was just foraging and exploring the back yard. 

The electric netting was gathered up and carted over to the new area and then it was time to start moving the tractor to the yard. Which was a chore in itself. I am able to pull it - but it is a slow process. The route we were taking to get the tractor back into the yard was the same route we took to get it out of the yard...so down the driveway through the yard in front of the garden and through the field to the side yard past the garden boxes and then finally under the cherry tree. 

The good thing is that we won't really have to cart it anywhere else after this batch of chicks are done. We are only planning on one batch of meat birds this year. So, wherever the tractor ends up when it's time to harvest is probably where it will stay until next spring.

So, once the tractor was in place we got the baby meat chickies out of their stinky brooder and out on grass!

This was Sunday morning - all is well with the littlest creatures on the farm
We ended up having to get them a new feeder as they were too big to huddle around the little yellow feeder anymore. Now they can all eat at the same time. Also, they got into this whole being on grass thing down pretty quickly and were scratching and tackling a mole hill in no time flat! Since they are still just under three weeks old we have a heat lamp on in the corner for them and we are using the brooder box as a wind break so they will be somewhat protected at night. 

When I woke up on Sunday I was concerned about them, so I went out to look at them early in the morning and they were doing pretty well. Happy Happy! So, I don't need to worry about them too much. 

The Twenty-Five will fill this tractor out in now time!
What we have observed so far. Freedom Rangers are extremely active! They have been jumping the two feet to the top part of the frame - crazy - and have been able to maintain some sort of balance for about two seconds...if that long. They have been stretching their wings...A LOT! "Flying" from mid-tractor to the door. Their aim is okay, but the landing is pretty rough. They like to jump on top of the bin that we put in with them as a little shelter and then taking kamikaze dives off of it to the ground. Since they enjoy jumping so much I decided that they could have the perch that Tom made for the Javas. The FRs figured that thing out in like a minute. It took the Javas a day or two. The other thing that has been constant is the sparring between what I'm guessing are males. Not sure how many there might be, but a good rule of thumb for straight run chicks is ten percent...maybe a few more. I guess we'll see in a few weeks.

Seriously, these littles have been a lot of fun to watch and I am looking forward to seeing how they progress over the next few weeks. Trying to take photos and post them on Instagram so I will have a good record of their growth and progress during the time that they are with us. 

Farm Life is the Best Life!

Saturday, April 7, 2018

Graduated!


The little ladies were graduated from the stinky brooder to the chicken tractor yesterday evening. It was a pleasant evening and the transition was an exciting one. Just watching them jump and run around was worth all the effort that went into building this chicken tractor.

Today's weather has been interesting, the morning wasn't so bad, just some showers. However this afternoon we have high winds for our area. The winds are supposedly going to last until late tonight.

SWELL!

So far the tarp is holding up. It was attached to the frame with zip ties so today's wind will put it the test for sure!


The Javas will live in the tractor in the yard for a little while. I hope to give them their own space out on pasture along with access to outside of the tractor. That will have to wait until next weekend when the flock is moved back out to the field. Then we can use the original poultry netting that was part of the original kit that we purchased.

By then we'll be able to pull it instead of carrying it. Yep, you read that right, we had to carry it. Not a nice and easy, short and direct route, mind you. This thing is much wider than the openings in the fence, so around the garage and through the grass we went. That grass is a lot taller when you are carrying a heavy object and watching your step! Good times...never ending fun around our place.

Also, I am sure that we are an unending source of entertainment to those who live nearby or are driving past our house. So if anyone saw us marching around the garage I'm sure they got a good show. However, I was determined to not put it down! Mostly because if that happened while were in the field, I'm pretty sure that I would not have been able to hoist the tractor up again. Plus, I'm pretty sure that it would have broken and that would have been terrible and I would feel REALLY bad - for a long time!

Once the wheels are usable it will be easier to pull it from place to place. We can start by practicing in the yard!

For more information on this chicken tractor visit Farm Marketing Solutions HERE.

One chicken tractor done...number two will wait 'til next year!

Saturday, March 24, 2018

It's Saturday Evening?!

What happened to the day? It was cold, Cold, COLD today!

Yesterday was my day to cook Indo food for a chosen few. It's my way to end my vacation week, hanging out with friends.

Progress on the chicken tractor project slowed down a little bit. There is a door frame in place along with the panels that we put together a couple of days ago.

The thing that we are stuck on currently would be bending the EMT conduit. In the Stress Free Chicken Tractor book it says that bending the conduit can be "tricky." Yeah we got tricky down...

This wasn't accidental - just trying to figure out how the bender works
Oh - we rented a bender at Parkrose -
This did not come with instructions
Tom took some time this afternoon to try to get the tubing bent in the right places and the right angles. He got frustrated and declared that all 5 tubes would not work and went back to Parkrose to get more EMT. After he returned - I decided to take a turn with this seemingly harmless device.

I studied the section on how to prep the tubes for bending...then tried to make a bend. Well, I found out very quickly that my short stature would make this task a little difficult. The tubing is ten feet long...TEN FEET! However, I had to do it in my own to figure out what needed to happen to get things set up. After some moments of being annoyed and stretching and twisting AND stepping on one end of bender to make it work...I DID get it to work! Since I was just goofing around I made a sculpture instead. Oh well....I got a better understanding of how to accomplish the task. The instructions in the book helped, especially the illustrations.

We will have to get busy on the project as soon as we get home from church tomorrow morning since the bender needs to go back in the afternoon.

NO PRESSURE.

One of the EMT tubes that Tom formed
After I played around with my first bended tube I took a look at Tom's "rejects" and did a minor adjustment and it seems to work out okay. It won't be like the book says, but it will work. All we need to do is get three more to match it as close as possible - perfect is too much to ask for. This is a chicken tractor after all and the chickens aren't going to complain.

It's a hobbity sized door!

These little chickies are just over 5 weeks old!
Once the Java Girls are old enough and the weather stays at a reasonable temperature they will be the first to take up residence in the chicken tractor. They will need to go out in about three weeks if not sooner. The Magpie girls should be arriving by then! Then when the ducklings outgrow the broader they will move into the tractor next. I'm hoping that we'll be able to integrate the Javas in with the Jerseys and Aussies when that happens. It shouldn't be too difficult as they will all be in the same area, but separate. So, until further notice their is no vacancy at the Chicken Tractor Inn.

My morning project - making a loaf of Egg Bread...SO GOOD!

Ready for the oven
This shape is the most interesting yet!
One more day away from work...sigh...

Thursday, March 22, 2018

March 22, 2018 - The Project Continues

Last year at this time we were finishing up the Justin Rhodes Chick-Shaw. At this point in the project I think we still needed the wheels and few other odds and ends to finish up. Check that post out HERE.

I also had some pretty good looking Romaine lettuce growing in the garden. These were transplanted in mid fall of 2016 and survived all sorts of crazy weather! There were a variety of other items as well, but the lettuce really well.


The John Suscovich chicken tractor has been a fairly straightforward build so far. Yesterday's progress was mainly us getting the pieces put together. We were able to get quite a bit done before the rain started. Tom had an appointment at noon so I went to do some grocery shopping during that time. When I walked out of the store I saw the rain...boooo...oh well. We live in the Pacific NW - sun breaks are a treat during the spring and if they last for a couple of days we take advantage of it! The rain keeps us humble...maybe.

The top photo is from the morning and the one below was taken after we returned from errands.
The first side panel assembled and ready for glue - then screws
The different parts of the frame all glued and screwed together
Our favorite glue
There wasn't a lot more to do after we returned, just one more panel to finish up before calling it a day.

Today - it was rainy most of the time, windy at times and there was hail later in the afternoon. I think that today was supposed to be the most rainy of the week. Tomorrow should be less rain, but who really knows for sure?

Welcome back rain!
Before applying glue and then drilling in the screws
Since there was rain the project needed to be moved into the garage. Not because it was dry...but because it was less wet. I'll tell you what this thing is HUGE! The Chick-shaw wasn't nearly as big, it was more of a square. This dude is longer and wider.

It's a different type of coop - this is pretty squatty
It's hard to see just how big this is, trust me - this will be spacious
Today we took the bones of the tractor and put them all together. Since Tom was using lumber that was from an existing shed at the back of our property; all of the pieces were cut to the dimensions that were listed in the book. While the book assumed that the person building this chicken tractor would be buying the materials at a local home improvement type store. So, the pieces were slightly "off," but we'll make it work. The main thing is that the changes aren't terrible and it will still work as it should. That would be - a house for the little chickies that we have. They are tiny by comparison, but when this gets finished and they are big enough to move outside, they will be just fine. 

Today's trip was to Parkrose Hardware where we got the 10' half inch EMT and some brackets. Parkrose is great - the conduit was $3.49-ish which was probably a 1/3 of the price of Grovers. Forget you Grovers! When I decide to do my low tunnels we'll have to go and pick up a few more. 

I believe that we'll be renting the conduit bender tomorrow from Parkrose - $10 per day. We really should have asked if we could bend the tubes there, this job shouldn't take very long at all.

The thing about tomorrow is that I will not be working on anything that is farm related. We will have some friends over for dinner - so I'll be spending a good portion of the day cooking!

As my vacation comes to an end, I'm happy with all that we accomplished in the few hours each day that we spent on the Chicken Tractor. I also have several trays of soil blocks and seeds started, so that's a bonus!

One more day and then back to prepping for going back to work - but until then, I still have three days of staycation time! 

Tuesday, March 20, 2018

March 20, 2018 - Chicken Tractor Build Day 2

Tractor build started a little later today after running a couple of errands and me getting a haircut. First stop of the day was for coffee, then off to Shur-Way for some special screws and some gussets/brackets. Afterwards we made our way to Wilco for rewards day. Pretty much everything was on sale and I already knew that I wanted to get some of their potting soil - professional grade no less. Two cubic feet for $6.50 - yes please! That's a big ol' bag, I'm set for the 2018 garden season.


Today was all about getting the lap joints all cut out. What is a lap joint you ask? I had to ask myself - Thank you Wikipedia!

photo credit Wikipedia - I had to edit it myself - not bad eh?
Construction Zone
Basically Tom did the cuts and I chiseled out the little pieces -

Before the pieces were chiseled out
All smoothed out
I finally got tired bending over at the old stump and moved to sitting in the driveway - it's totally normal
Our big accomplishment for the day - it's celebration time!!
Before I started helping out with the tractor project I got some more soil blocks made and started an entire tray of Lavender. I had a tray started last year, but I ended up neglecting them and they died. So, this year is the year that things will work! The other tray is all Seed Savers Exchange seeds, flowers, cukes and filderkraut. I have a few other things that I would like to get started, but nothing is critical at this point. I'm going to focus on making the garden a success and not trying to do too much this year. We already have enough happening anyway, I don't need to stress out about growing flowers and veggies!

Perfect day playing in the hoop house
So far this has been a relaxing vacation. I don't feel like I need to accomplish everything during this week. It would be nice if we could get the chicken tractor nearly done and ready to use when the Javas are ready to go out. Anyway, we are making goals as each day comes and if I don't get something done, no biggie...I will get to it another time. Hopefully the next day. If I could stay home and work on our mini farm I would be one happy farmer chick!

While we were out chatting while the hooligans were out and about I was commenting on how having fresh eggs really make a big difference in how much of our own food that we grow ends up as a part of one of our meals. Eggs are like an essential ingredient in so many recipes and dishes. We have been making more breakfast wraps, scrambles...fritatta, baking bread etc. It's awesome! So really eggs is helping us eat more healthful (most of the time) and eat at home more often.

I have to say that today was a great day to be on our mini-farm.

Monday, March 19, 2018

March 19, 2018

Wahoooo!!! Waking up and not having to go to work is the BEST feeling! Already the start of vacation is nice - weather-wise. Unlike last year with rain nearly every single day. The 10-day forecast calls for rain later this week. That means we'll have to get all of the outside stuff we want to do all done and move the chicken tractor construction into the garage.

After a pretty busy weekend, I kind of took it easy today. I did get some seeds into one of the garden boxes - Red Bunching Onions, White bunching Onions, Arugula and Spinach. Also, got the two hooligans out and let them wander around.

These two add a little bit of fun to vacation time!
After Tom made a trip to the dump we had lunch and then got to work on the chicken tractor.
photo credit Farm Marketing Solutions
This will be for when we raise the meat chickens, but until that happens well use it for a temporary outdoor area for the Mottled Java girls. It will be a an excellent way to introduce the new girls to the current flock.

The biggest thing that needed to be done was prepping the lumber that we salvaged from the old equipment shed that needs to be taken down. This will be awesome because we are repurposing the lumber.
All of the lumber that we'll need for the project
Penny photo bomb
Fresh Eggs!

Saturday, March 17, 2018

2018 Staycation

I am so excited to be home all week! This is what I long for...staying home to work on projects on our mini-farm.

The morning was productive as we got out and did tbe chicken chores together. When I'm home the two hooligans get some extra time away from the cluckers so in keeping with tradition they were released from the hen pen.

After some worm hunting with Mr Shelly I decided to work on getting another garden box cleared out and ready for some mushroom compost. A garden project is never complete until the almost 11 month old gander gets involved.

Big boy Lenny inspecting my work
Upon closer inspection....
Meanwhile, Thor and his girl crew were happily working on the pile of wood chips. It's good to give the kids something to do...

King of the mountain
The littlest girls aren't so little anymore...they are now entering into the not so cute stage of chickhood -

Chow time!
Whew...we went out looking for some supplies for the Stress-Free Chicken tractor. That took us to Harbor Freight and Parkrose Hardware. Since we have most of the lumber which a friend of mine took down off of our huge shed we only need hardware type items. We picked up enough items to round out the stuff we need to construct the frame of the tractor. Many of the other items can be purchased later as they are not critical to the early construction of the frame.

Our haul from the hardware stores
We had a couple of other stops to make with the last stop at Shorty's to check out if they carry bare root fruit trees...it didn't appear so. We'll have to head to Woodland tomorrow and visit Tsugawa's. Just to be sure they still had trees I sent them a message on Facebook. This weekend is the last weekend to get the bare root stock. I'm glad I took the time to contact them! We didn't leave Shorty's empty handed though...they did have a nice variety of seed potatoes.

Growing potatoes is one of my favorites and so easy to do!
This is just the beginning of what will be a very productive week away from work!

Wednesday, February 14, 2018

Another GAFT favorite

The Great American Farm Tour. How I ever sat myself down almost everyday to watch the daily video from Justin Rhodes is beyond me. We did it though, although, there were a couple I just couldn't sit through. Otherwise we watched them all! Some of them a few times even.

The farm feature was waaay back in May of last year. The Farmer is John Suscovich. The farm is Camps Road Farm in Connecticut. The book is Stress Free Chicken Tractor Plans.

The first video that was featured:


The moment he kneeled down to help out Mr. Brown - I knew this guy would be awesome! 

Then there was this video:


By the time we had watched these videos we already built the Justin Rhodes Chick-Shaw. The chicken tractor with a million pieces...hahaha! Actually the chick mobile is awesome! It did take some time though. When I found out that Farmer John had a book I HAD to check it out. Not only that I ORDERED it and we have been studying it and will be building one of these bad boys soon.

Everything about this guy...his experience kind of clicked with me and I understood what he was saying. The way he farms, the way he learns while doing stuff and then makes adjustments when things don't work out...boy I get that. He is for real people...a farmer, husband, father...YouTuber. He is a farmer...not a homesteader. We all know how that word has no meaning to me. It is over-used. Enough said. Also, not that I would do this, but he toured the part of the US on his bike, visiting farms along the way. What a life! There was a time that I thought I might want to do a bicycle tour, but that's an unrelated story.

We had the chickies before we saw these videos, but the video about the chicken tractors got me thinking about raising meat birds. Something I wanted to do last year, but let's face it, with the new chickies (gosling & duckling included) and trying to keep my pathetic garden from totally dying off I don't think that a batch of meat chickens would have helped. What we did end up doing is processing three of our extra cockerels at approximately 19 weeks old or so. That was quite the experience - one that I am happy to say I survived and didn't get totally freaked out about. Go HERE for that post.

Last summer he did a few videos on raising pigs and how beneficial they are to the land. Our property was once part of a much larger cattle farm operation years ago and our plan is to add a breeding pair of American Guinea Hogs that will help make our property healthy again. All we have done for nearly 20 years is mow the grass. Only last year did we actually introduce the chickens to part of the pasture. I have plans to keep the pigs moving around the property and increasing the food growing areas. Fruit trees, berry bushes or gardens, I want to add them all! 

What else about this guy...he is all about sharing information on YouTube - all free which is a bonus. He does have a "store" on his website, Farm Marketing Solutions. If you are looking for suggested reading, he's got a list of books. Apparel, yup. His published books...oh yeah. Like I mentioned before I got the chicken tractor book. There's a new book in the works that I'm planning to order to get our market going. 

In the time since watching these two videos, I have started to follow his channel - SO GOOD! I've commented on his videos and sent him an email of appreciation (and got a reply!) - he is seriously cool! 

Go on...check the videos above and check out his channel on YouTube. I'm going to start planning again...